Reclaim You- The Complexity of The Mother Daughter Dynamic
Season 1: Episode 7- The Complexity of Mother Daughter Dynamic with Laura
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Understand the intricate dynamics of mother-daughter relationships and how they shape our self-esteem, body image, and even our career paths
Join us in this heartfelt conversation with Laura as we shed light on this complex topic and explore the power of healing these relationships. We also discuss the importance of recognizing the biases in research and literature on this matter, and the need to include more diverse voices in the conversation.
Navigating boundaries in mother-daughter relationships can be challenging, but we tackle this topic head-on, emphasizing the significance of creating space for individuality while honoring each other's wishes and needs. We explore how expectations can impact our relationships and the importance of deciphering what is genuinely an expectation from a mother and what is an interpretation by the daughter. Additionally, we face the difficulty of setting boundaries and the fear of what it could mean for the relationship.
As we dive deeper into the mother-daughter relationship, we discuss the benefits of processing underlying emotions in a safe space, such as with a third-party therapist, and how this can create an environment for both parties to be heard and understood. We explore the idea of grief and acceptance, and how it can help both mother and daughter come to terms with the evolving nature of their relationship. By reflecting on our own experiences as mothers and daughters, we uncover how understanding each other can help heal wounds from the past and foster a stronger bond moving forward.
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To learn more about Reclaim Therapy and how to work with a therapist on the team, head to www.reclaimtherapy.org.
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Sarah Host 00:01
Hi there, welcome to Reclaim You, a podcast published by the Reclaim Therapy team. Join us as we share stories, tools and insights on how to reclaim you in the wake of trauma, disordered eating and body shame. Grab your coffee, tea or your favorite snack and get cozy, because we're about to dive in. Welcome back to Reclaim You. Today, we're talking with Laura about mothers and daughters. on the heels of Mother's Day Feels like a lot has been coming up for folks, and so we thought this would be a good opportunity to chat a little bit about relationships between mothers and daughters and all that that entails. Hey, i'm so curious about your. why your reasons for wanting to chat about this?
Laura
Host
00:48
I think, as you said, it's been coming up a lot in the wake of Mother's Day or in leading up to Mother's Day, especially around the issue of our bodies and our relationship with food and our mothers. But I think it's as well, it's part and parcel of my own journey, of my relationship with my mother and the healing, the work I had to do, the healing and especially I lost my mother at 32, and it was a sudden loss. Also the grief around that and not having the mother I hoped I would have had physically but didn't have her anyway. So it's partially personal because it's been coming up anecdotally with clients as well.
Sarah
Host
01:31
Yeah, i feel like partially personal, because most things in our work are right. As humans in the world who go through so much and the work that we do, there's a reason why we're drawn to it, exactly So thank you so much for being willing to share a little bit of your story, appreciate it, tell us a little bit about how you see the impact of how we see ourselves in relationship to relationships with mothers and daughters.
Laura
Host
01:56
I mean first I guess I want to preface this with this is not to encompass all types of relationships of mothers and daughters. Like I have a particular bias as a white middle-class woman in America right who lives on the East Coast, who comes from an Irish Catholic family. So, like our ethnic backgrounds, our cultural backgrounds, there's differences there. There's differences of folks who never had a mother or who lost their mother through various means, and I also think about those who might not identify as a daughter to their mother, whether they have affirmed their gender as not the one assigned at birth, and that's shifted relationship or some other thing has happened where that identity has been in some way impacted. So I just think it's important I'm speaking to my own experience, the anecdotal experience I've had as a therapist And I think as well, like the research in the literature is primarily biased in that direction, and so it's unfortunate. But there are more voices out there and their voices that need to be heard And we certainly welcome them to add to this conversation, absolutely, absolutely.
03:19
Having said that, when I think about the impacts, the mother-daughter relationship this is just for those of us who can claim one, if you will. This is such an intimate, connected. It's such a primary relationship in our lives in so many ways And I think in being that there is ample room for that relationship to have wonderful positive impacts on both parties, but also for there to be conflict, for there to be some negative aspects of that. And the areas that come to mind are certainly the area of self-esteem as a woman and how my mother impacts that, or my relationship with my mother, and vice versa too. Let's not say it's all on the mother here.
04:09
Daughters have an impact on mothers as well. And certainly the body, our relationship, body and food, career. What is our vocational calling? What are we called to do in life? And then also like intimate relationships, how we choose our partners in life, how we operate in those relationships. And I think that there's a lot of space for reparation of our outlook on this as a society, because so much for so long was blaming our moms, and there is this tendency still. I think that we blame our moms for all of these issues, when I think there's room for greater understanding and greater healing, even if there's impact, to also understand that the intent of our mothers by and large not all mothers, but the intent is coming out of a place of love Right.
Sarah
Host
05:06
So that's something, that is what they learned, and yeah.
Laura
Host
05:12
Yeah, they're having compassion and empathy, and also, just in general, like in the therapeutic process, like, yeah, we're going to explore some things that might be really difficult to explore and might bring up feelings of anger or other feelings towards your mother At the same time. How do we balance that with the fact that you're in relationship with her? Again could be said about the mother's relationship with daughter. So I might err on the side of daughter, just because that's sort of the place I'm coming from, sure, but I want to honor that mothers are included in this.
Sarah
Host
05:46
Of course, yeah. So because so many of the folks that we work with are struggling with their relationship with food and their relationship with their bodies, let's start there, if that feels okay. Where do you see that trickle down? I think we can probably go to the place of like. a lot of times we learn dieting behaviors from our mothers or self-beliefs around our bodies that there's something wrong with our bodies from our mothers. But could you talk a little bit more about that?
Laura
Host
06:13
Yeah, sure, i think, first and foremost, we all live in the same society. We live in this diet culture society. We talk about that in previous podcasts. We're impacted by it and our mothers, as much as we are currently, are impacted by it. But also, whatever diet culture stuff was happening back when they were getting exposed as a young person, they also are carrying with them.
06:39
And so I think that if I think about as a mother, if I'm a mother, my relationship to my own body has a lot of bearing on the development of my daughter's relationship with her body. And how aware am I of what that relationship is? How connected am I to my body? How accepting am I of my body? What messages am I offering to my daughter, to my sons, to my children, to others about bodies And what am I sort of repeating that maybe doesn't need to be repeated, that maybe it's an invitation for me to look at that. I think about that sort of like that primary relationship of mother's relationship with her own body being a place where there can be exploration for a mother in her own way. And then there's this daughter who, for some mothers, is coming from our bodies. We've carried her. She's up for us. For other daughters not the case, but there are daughters of our hearts, absolutely. So we still have impact on them. And I think about what are the messages.
07:54
When I work with clients it's like, well, what messages did you get growing up about your body or about food? And so often they talk about their mom's impact on that. So if their mother was dieting constantly, as we talked about, they often joined her in that, like going to Weight Watchers meetings or whatever. The fad of the day is reading the latest diet book, doing the latest exercise. And so this becomes a way for mothers and daughters. It becomes this place where they're invited to bond, but it becomes this tough place where there's a judgment being made as well, and often daughters really carry a lot of woundedness from that, from a young age being told that their body wasn't good enough. They already have enough of that that they're facing, but then to have their mother reiterating that isn't helpful.
08:46
And so from a mother's vantage point, from both vantage points, can we walk on my only other shoes? How would I feel if it was my mother saying, ooh, that changes the perspective. Or why might my mom be saying this and what has her experience been? that as well might change my perspective, to allow more space for dialogue and to make conflicts. So I think about things around weight, things around the clothing we wear, the food that we're eating, the exercises we're engaged in, how worthy we believe our body's, representing our worth and our value and our mother, or the imperfections of our body's being pointed out in a way that devalues that, and also around sexuality as well, which is a whole nother realm, right, but a daughter becomes a woman and sexuality is a part of that. And so what are those messages and conversations? Have there been any? There are, somewhere that doesn't happen at all.
Sarah
Host
09:51
I'm even thinking of the loss that so many people experience when validation of their body disappears because of body change, and how that does feel like a huge loss of connection in the relationship, that they're not being seen anymore because their body is different or the meaning of that may be, their body is now bad or not good enough or anything like that And how impactful that can be when it comes to the relationship with mothers and daughters.
Laura
Host
10:21
Oh for sure, Yeah, yeah, i mean it becomes the topic of conversation. It becomes like our mothers assume that that place in our lives is someone who, with whom we can talk about this at times, and that's true. But when the discussion becomes more about pointing out faults or trying to change a daughter and her body, that's where it's problematic, and I also wanna honor that, like the impact being negative, but the intent mothers are living vicariously sometimes with their daughters, or their own lived experience is impacting that. So I know what it was like to live in a larger body and I don't want my daughter to have to suffer, so I'm gonna do anything it takes so that she doesn't have to suffer. And we often then align with diet culture stuff. Right, finns, diets, exercise versus. I know what it was like to not be able to accept my body in a diet culture. How can I help my daughter to accept hers?
11:24
Yes, yes, it might be completely counter-cultural, but this is the Definitely counter-cultural yeah, yeah, this is the place where we can begin in the home and encouraging an acceptance, a celebration of body, whatever body you're in, and also that our bodies change And a mother who has lived longer and walks through life longer knows how much our bodies change as women over a lifetime and that change in the body can, as you said, bring up all of these conflicts in ourselves and in our relationships.
11:59
But it can also be a point of celebration, and I think about cultures where that time in a woman's life where she's changing, whether it's puberty or in birth, we're so steeped in ritual and this celebration of womanhood, the celebration of childbirth and childrearing, and this wise council of women and surrounding women in that right, because we put so much emphasis on mom has to get all her shit together and get it right, so no mother is gonna be able to do that right, and so I also.
12:35
We need other mother figures and how do we create that for our daughters and for ourselves as adults? My mother is no longer living, but I have a lot of maternal figures in my life who provide wisdom in different ways, whether it's an aunt or a grandmother or mom's best friend or some other someone. And yeah, so I think it's important How do we create a space, a network of wisdom and safety for each other And me as a mother, that I can go to other women and have that wisdom and learn and grow Me as a daughter, that I have that network as well, so that there's not so much pressure on this relationship all the time?
Sarah
Host
13:24
Yeah, to be everything and anything all at the same time. Yeah, exactly, i think that in our work so many folks start to realize maybe what was missing in their relationship with their moms, what maybe they wish were different, maybe how they want to mother in the world, whether to their own children or to friends, other family members, things like that, how they want to mother differently. I think a lot of times there starts to become this in our conflict of like, how do I renegotiate my own relationship with my mother? as I'm realizing this and working towards wanting to mother differently or show up differently in my life, i'm curious if you have any thoughts on how to kind of manage some of that conflict, whether that's internal conflict about the relationship with their mother, or the external conflict of trying to set boundaries, maybe not wanting to set boundaries, because sometimes the boundary setting can be so scary because, like, what if she leaves? Like what if she's gone? What if she doesn't accept my boundary? How to start to negotiate some of that.
Laura
Host
14:35
Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, i think first and foremost is to remember that conflict can be helpful because it invites us to have to think about these things and work through them. So, if there's conflict in the relationship, or if conflict is lurking in some way, to not be afraid of that per se. It might be uncomfortable, but to look at it as perhaps this is an opportunity for growth in all tardies. But, yeah, i think that there is this need to create space in a relationship, in any relationship, but particularly the mother-daughter relationship. Where is the space for each to be their own person? So that me, as a mother, i want what's best for my daughter. At the same time, i'm honoring that she is her own person and has her own needs and her own space in which she operates. And vice versa. I'm a daughter and I look at my mother and say, wow, mom is dealing with her own stuff here and mom has her own space in which she operates and her own perspective on this. So, truly, again, like be able to put yourself in the shoes of the other at times. And now you know, i say that as a 45-year-old woman. Right, you know, if we're talking about 15-year-old, different story per se.
15:53
But yeah, like, i guess, first and foremost, like as well, like is that idea of you know what are the expectations that are lurking in the background that are impacting us? So like, there are so many unspoken expectations in relationships. So what were the expectations that we think our mother has of us, that we're carrying with us that might be creating some of that conflict? Like, oh my gosh, i should have children, or I shouldn't have children, or I should be a stay-at-home mom, or I shouldn't be a stay-at-home mom, or whatever. I mean, the list is endless.
16:25
But to think about, like, what are those expectations and what is truly an expectation, you know, that might need to be worked out with mom, or what is something that I've interpreted as one but is not right. Like if I really talk to mom about it, she's like, oh wait, wait a minute. Like that's what I, that was my experience. But like, i recognize that your experience is different, but sometimes we assume things And I think it's important that those you know that expectations in general, there's flexibility around them And there is this ability again to honor that each of us as an individual who is living in our own space as much as we're connected to one another and want the best for one another.
Sarah
Host
17:02
What about boundaries? How it feels really hard. I know personally And for you, know the folks that we work with and friends, and really boundaries are just hard. right, therapists, we talk about boundaries a lot, but boundaries are hard. So let's talk about that a little bit Setting boundaries with folks who are our mothers and daughters in that relationship, and what that looks like and maybe why it's so hard because, gosh, it's hard.
Laura
Host
17:29
Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah. Well, there's, like you know, there's so much ingrained in the relationship. There are so many patterns and habits laid down in a relationship that when a woman is coming into her own and starting to realize her own desires, wishes, hopes for herself and recognize where that is not aligned, maybe, with mom, or recognizing like, ooh, you know, i used to believe that thing mom would talk about, but I don't want to believe that anymore. That's not really who I am or who I want to be. And it is difficult because you know, especially women that I work with, they want to continue to have a relationship with their mother, right, and yet in setting boundaries, know that inevitably that could cause conflict And, as you said, there's that fear like what does that mean for the future of our relationship? And I think you know the invitation that I offer is coming back to the self first and really sort of working with yourself, whether you're a mother or a daughter, to sort of identify the areas that are problematic, challenging, to identify your own expectations or hopes and wishes for yourself, so that you're pretty clear. You know you're clear about that, because it can get muddy when mom's involved or when you know mom and daughter are involved. And you know, i say to folks like whether that's like you're sitting down with trusted others, you're doing this work in therapy, but you know there is this aspect, as you put it, of the sort of like the internal process of mothering ourselves, yeah, yeah, and that that can take place at the same time that we have a mother who is with us and not in a she's not good enough way, but in a she's. You know, we're only capable so much as human beings And when I'm a mother I'm going to have the same, you know, struggles, perhaps in different ways, but I'm not going to be able to be all thanks to my daughter, right. And so I think it's part and parcel of like being willing to step into that space and start to do the work internally myself, but then also honoring that that, as my daughter is doing that work, maybe I'm invited to do some of my own work internally as a mother and from my perspective.
19:43
You know, i often hear from folks like you know they've struggled for years and they're like I just wish my mom would change, i just wish she would change, and she doesn't hear me and she won't, and like we have to come to a place of like. You know you cannot change the other person, like that's not if we, if that's where we lay our the bulk of our energy, it's. It's futile, because a person needs to decide in themselves if they want to change, if they want to shift how they see the world, how they are in the world, how they are in relationship with us. And so, for years, i think there is this like conflict of like trying to change, like see it my way, why can't you see it my way? Why can't you do it my way, from both parties. And what would it be to give space for both to, sort of on their own?
20:26
look at what is important to me and, ultimately, what is the biggest priority.
20:31
If the priority is that I want a relationship with my daughter or with my mother, that is, i don't know, whatever it is, i mean you choose the word right but that this is the type of relationship that I want with my mother, for some of us, that might be very boundaryed, because mom has her own issues and she can't change and she's, you know, mom might have.
20:56
You know, there's borderline mothers out there, there's mothers who are struggling with addictions, there's mothers who are abusive and other ways, like. So, like that boundary is going to change and shift accordingly And and, at the same time, recognizing when a boundary might be set that was for safety and protection at a point but is no longer needed and no longer necessary. Right, like some can be at both ends, but I think it's hard to do that on your own. I think you need help, right, like to have an objective party to start to talk to and just sort of sort through those feelings and things that have been trapped and that you haven't been able to voice for so many years, and then to slowly step into exposing yourself to creating boundaries, right. So, like what is most irksome right now or what is most impacting me right now, and what boundary might be needed, and how do I try that right, and how do I try it in a way that is compassionate toward mom or daughter versus blaming them?
Sarah
Host
22:02
Yeah, and thinking too of the support that's needed to even, like, increase the number of boundaries that people are putting in place to be really more self-protective. It does feel like like you were mentioning that internal mothering process, of to to feel really safe and protected from maybe certain aspects of the relationship or this other person the mother or the daughter, maybe adding more boundaries and having support in negotiating. Like what does that look like? Does that look like like like the gauntlet is down and full cut off? or does that look like you can really really come to my house since these certain times of day, or you know, when you do, i want you to knock, or whatever it is, you know, like those are just kind of basic ones, but how helpful it can be to have someone to process that with and to acknowledge what, like what your internal response is to that and the lies behind that and how you can care for yourself through it, that internal mothering process.
Laura
Host
23:02
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, for sure. To have that other party involved in the process is, i think, just been so helpful to me, to others that I know And you know my clients will say that as well because this becomes a safe space where they can explore things that they just cannot go to those places with their mom for whatever reason, out of fear, out of their past experience with mom, and there's also that sense of support and accountability as well, like okay, so like I want to set this boundary, but why do I keep not setting it? So let's talk about that. You know what is that point? what's coming up, and you know it is.
23:41
It's really hard to balance processing all the emotions, and there's negative emotions, there's anger, there's for some women it's rage, right, like it's anger on a whole other level Disappointment, sadness, loss, grief. You know there's so much. Why do we process those emotions safely so that they're not interfering with our desires for a relationship with each other? Yeah, right, i've processed my anger and I found a way to talk to my mom or my daughter about that anger, but without all of the heightened emotion and instead with the ability for both of us to come together and really hear and listen, or for at least me, to stand my ground and be able to say words that can be heard Absolutely.
Sarah
Host
24:29
Yeah. And then on the other side of this comes when there's so much grief around, like things not going the way you want them to right, Like the boundaries not being held or honored or respected or not being seen or acknowledged, validated, affirmed in all of the ways that you're wanting your mom or your daughter, you know, to do that for you, And being with that and the very it feels just like a very intense grief of losing even sometimes the hope that that's going to happen.
Laura
Host
25:02
Yeah, yeah, i think that that is such a well made point. You know, i think about the idea of grief and acceptance. There is a process of grief because no one relationship can ever be all the things we wish it would be, and so inevitably there are things that we might grieve. And in a mother-daughter relationship, you know, there are all of these tropes out there about what it should look like or what it you know will look like, and yet the lived experiences are very different. And so I might have had this social trope about what a relationship with a mother-daughter looks like.
25:43
That's been with me as a mother And I want that with my daughter And I'm trying so hard to make it happen. But in trying so hard to make it happen, i'm pushing her away And I, as a daughter, so heavily want something else, right, like I just wish my mom would hear me, or I just wish my mom would accept me, even though it's different from what she desired or wanted. And yet anytime I try to give voice to that, she shuts me down And again we're pushing the relationship away. So how do we learn to accept each other, like, how do we sometimes? I think it's really about coming together and maybe with the help of a third party, a therapist, to start to look at like who are we? You know, how do I? I know my daughter or my mother as I was at this age or at this stage of life, but like that's not the stage we're in now.
Sarah
Host
26:35
So in every stage.
Laura
Host
26:36
How do I point myself with this person and make space for them to grow? That, like you know as much as your daughter, obviously there's a growth that's going to happen, and you know, we know that that mom's growing too. Mom's growing and learning and struggling, just as we are. And so the acceptance that neither of us is going to be perfect in that equation but that both of us can, together, through our individual means of doing our work and perhaps in a collective means of coming together, really start to honor and embrace who we are, forgive, perhaps, like, give voice to the things that this really hurt me, mom.
27:14
You know my mom worked and went to school, and there is a very vivid memory I carry with me. I was maybe eight and mom had I might've been younger than that And my mother would be home during the day, sleeping. Then she would go to school as soon as I got off the bus and then she would go to work overnight And then she'd come home in the morning And as I was getting on the bus she was coming home. So I would run after her car when she was leaving to go to school. So I'd get home, get off the bus, she'd get in her car to leave, say goodbye, and I would run crying after it.
27:51
My father would have to come and console me because mommy wasn't there and I didn't understand And I internalized that in a lot of ways, that I felt abandoned by her. She also lost her father very dramatically when I was shy of two years of age And I know that impacted us in a lot of ways, because my father even said like she wasn't able to be a mother in such a pertinent time And she was pregnant with my brother as well. So, like, the circumstances of life have an impact on us And how do we explain the impact without, without putting all the blame on the other person? Like, how do we do so in a way that is empathetic, that is able to have compassion? And then, how do I receive this information? with a sense of detachment, if it will, with a sense of like being there to hear it and to really listen deeply versus defend myself?
Sarah
Host
28:48
Yeah, because I think we're so often on the defensive.
28:51
Yeah, it feels like that, I'll say basic concept that maybe isn't so basic because it's hard and nuanced. It's that like the rupture in the repair and the rupture in the repair that we know is what builds really strong and healthy relationships and strong attachment too. So, being able to engage in that like across the lifespan whether you're like a little person who doesn't really know and you're a mom to a little person who doesn't really know, i can relate to that to be able to come back to the basics of like, when there's a rupture, when there's a fracture, the most important thing that you can do is attune and repair always.
Laura
Host
29:25
Yeah, and that's the hardest thing to do with the people we're closest to. Yeah, absolutely, because in a way it is a safe place and there's all these patterns. So, like I can just I know that if I scream and holler at my mother, that we can act out more with our families of origin And in doing so there's a lot more hurt that can be done because we say things that maybe in the company of strangers or acquaintances, we would reframe or rephrase, and that does take some ability to sort of step back and consider the other. That is a practice. And so to imagine that as a practice and an opportunity And to how do we befriend each other at various stages and honor those stages? And maybe we create our own rituals as mother and daughter.
30:15
Like how do we, you know, i think about moms and daughters, my mother and I.
30:19
she would take me to there was this tea room in Britton House Square in Philadelphia and students from Curtis Institute of Music would play at it, and so she, you know, would take me to high tea there once a year and that would be like a mother-daughter thing that we did And it was really special because, like when we went, i don't know it was like I, it was like this part of me. This experience was so important to me that whatever might've been lurking in the background I was able to sort of set aside, so that the experience was what it was. It's not always the case, but, you know, maybe that ritual once a year that we do with our daughters also involves a conversation about like our relationship, or our desires or our hopes or what are the areas that you know we wanna grow and learn in together And there's intentionality there. You know so often like we're going through the motions because we're busy and that's totally understandable. But can we carve out space for intentionality with one another to really connect, or not deeply?
Sarah
Host
31:24
Yeah, are there any other thoughts you have on healing and forgiveness and what that looks like? You just mentioned a couple which feel really important.
Laura
Host
31:34
Yeah, the one thought that keeps coming to me and this is my own lived experience is that forgiveness and healing are not bound by the constructs of like time and space, if you will, not to get too woo-woo about it.
Sarah
Host
31:47
But a lot of my healing with my relationship I love the way.
Laura
Host
31:50
Bring it on. Yeah, a lot of my relationship healing with my mother, the vast majority of it, took place after she died And she wasn't here physically for me to pursue that. So I had to find, you know, different ways, but also my, you know my own understanding of life after death. My own spirituality played a role in that and we each have our own set of beliefs around that. But just, you know, like I do believe, that for most situations you know, if there's hope, if there's a desire by both parties to heal, that healing can be possible. But it might take a lot of work. And then you know, even when we have those missteps and or huge blowouts, how do we come back to what is the greatest, deepest desire of my heart in this relationship And how do I continue to step in that direction.
32:53
Healing also sometimes is about not being in relationship with. Yeah, There are some mothers and or daughters who we cannot be in relationship with for a variety of reasons, And each person has their own journey around what that is And that's fraught with its own guilt and shame. So you know, the reality is is that that it's not always going to be a happy ending. And yet, even in not being a happy ending, how can? can we forgive the person who is our mother or our daughter, as they are, understanding that they've been impacted by other aspects of life, right Like that, the intent has always been to love. Potentially the impact may have not been that way.
33:47
So, like can, from a distance, I forgive and accept as they are. And, quite frankly, if I haven't accepted, done the work of acceptance and forgiveness of me, how the heck can I do that with anyone else? Yeah, Yeah. So I need to look at myself, like where are the places that I'm stuck, Where are the places that I'm really? and perhaps I'm projecting that onto this other person, my mother, my daughter and I need to again double back and look at myself. So you know, I think there's there's like myriad ways to do this. I think at the heart of it, it's coming back to knowing and accepting and loving and forgiving oneself and then expanding that loving, kindness and forgiveness to relationship with mom and others, to relationship with daughter. So if we can teach our daughters to really trust their inner wisdom, Yeah.
34:44
And that inner self. You know, if we do that work and model that for our daughters and they learn to trust that inner wisdom and that inner compass, if you will, i mean that's, that's a huge step in the direction of a lifetime of much more healed and healing relationships.
Sarah
Host
35:07
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, that can be the, the inner narrative for someone to carry through throughout their lives. That will help them mother themselves throughout hard points, whether or not their mother, you know, is alive for a long time or a little time or whatever. But yeah, teaching our daughters that, that skill and that resilience and that level of connection and compassion and trust feels so important.
Laura
Host
35:30
The other thing too is like the idea of smothering right, Like that. We, like there's been so much information out there about parents and the way parenting has shifted and changed, and it does, I mean, generationally different parents have different. There's different like sort of societal expectations, But sometimes the more that we want or desire something for someone, the more likely we are to sort of go overboard and push it, And in that sense I always think about the more compelled I feel to do the thing, to push to whatever, Because that's the invitation to then step back. You know, before I live into that impulse, what would it be for me to just pause for a minute and check in with? what is this really about? Like, and is this? is this the only tool, the only means I have to articulate what it is I'm feeling or thinking in this situation? Or is there perhaps a different approach that I could take that might be heard better?
Sarah
Host
36:27
Yeah, yeah. And it's so funny because, as you're saying that, i'm thinking about my daughter. She just turned two and is lately she's been like running into the room and doing these spins and saying I'm so beautiful, i'm so beautiful, and she's just like spinning and like in her element And I'll say like yeah, you're beautiful and you're smart and you're funny and you're kind and you're a good sister And I'm like I could like go for an hour of like all of these other words to describe her And I'm like it's okay, sarah, just like chill a little bit, and she can run into the room and do a spin and say she's beautiful, like move on with her day, you know. So it's like like yes, and you're so much more And that feels so important for her to know and learn and internalize throughout her life. And sometimes it's that like overcompensation of like no, there's so much more, you know. But that that's what kind of came to mind as you were just talking about that.
Laura
Host
37:17
Yeah, i think that's like. That's like looking at it, as this is a lifetime relationship, so I don't have to do it all in this moment, right.
Sarah
Host
37:23
Right.
Laura
Host
37:24
I'm going to mess up like the self forgiveness part of it. Right, i'm going to mess up. Oh yeah, i'm going to make mistakes. And how can I forgive myself for those times when I've made mistakes? And then again, how do we come back to the repair and relationship? So, yeah, you know, forgiveness has so many ways that it could take shape And I think it really is dependent upon who is in the relationship and what the nature. You know, this is such a I mean, like gosh there. There are so many books out there About mother-daughter relationships from umpteen perspectives, yes, that at the end of the day, we could read all the books in the world and it could still be a struggle for us to understand and to lean into what we want. And so, again, that's where I say you know, if you're really in a struggle, who are the other wise voices you can turn to in your life that might offer some objective space.
38:20
And I remember my great grandmother. So my mother was really struggling with my middle brother. He was very obstinate and just, you know, just completely, was not willing to listen, was not willing to to work with her, and my mom kept trying to like in situations like you know, force it. And the more that he would respond with resistance, the more that she would go in after him like, no, you have to do this, no, you have to change. And he was small at this time And I remember my great grandmother just sitting in her rocking chair and very like zen, like I mean, this woman had nine children too But very zen, like just being like Lucy, just let him be, he will figure it out, give him some space, give him some space.
39:12
And my mother finally sort of let go and allowed that, and it was like night and day. You know, within an hour, my brother, you know, less than an hour, my brother completely just shifted and went and did the thing that my mother was trying to get him to do, without having to ask him. Sometimes less is more. Yeah, and our mothers or our mother figures in our lives, our grandmothers, our great grandmothers, you know, they might all play a role in that And it doesn't mean that we have to be like them, but to honor that, just because this one aspect of their life I don't really agree with, or these few aspects of their life, doesn't mean that mom, grandma and whomever doesn't have other things to offer. And the same with you know, my daughter like okay, i don't really agree with the decision that you're making, but let's talk about how can I support you as you're making it.
Sarah
Host
40:07
Yeah, stepping outside of shame or blame or guilt or whatever whatever else could be into support and in relationship Yeah, And where does agency lie Like?
Laura
Host
40:18
where does your daughter start to develop her own agency and her own sense of self, and where are you perhaps hindering that? We want what's best for our children. You know we love them to, sometimes to the point, though, of it being so much intense love and shown in such a way that it actually winds up creating more harm than good. So, yeah, that spaciousness for the individuality of each person, and to honor and celebrate that.
Sarah
Host
40:50
Mothers and daughters alike.
Laura
Host
40:51
You know I'm much more today. I never wanted to be like my mom. I will say this I hated her. I remember I was almost ready to go to college. It was like probably two weeks before I was ready to go off to my freshman year of college And I used to remember at one point screaming I would be like I cannot wait till I'm not here anymore, right, i don't even remember what the context of the fight was. And then, like throughout my life, because my mother had her own issues of body shame, her own issues with mental health, her own issues with boundaries you know, she probably was a borderline personality, so it was a tough push, pull.
41:27
And yet now, having done the work, my internal work of healing and also then expanding that to my relationship with her, even with her being gone, now I see my mother and myself and I celebrate it.
41:39
I'm like oh, wow, this is like the really awesome part of my mom that I miss but that I can still experience by virtue of living as her daughter in this world. Right, like I used to hyper focus on all the terrible things about her Right, and that was part of my healing journey. I used to blame her immensely. And now I find myself really like longing for those aspects of her that were so good And that, as much as I might carry the wounds of suffering that her own suffering, you know lost onto me, that I can do the work of healing around them myself with a trusted others, but that also I can celebrate who my mother was, and I think about my mom.
42:21
There's one thing that she used to say to me. So Billy Joel has this song lullaby, and the line from it is one day your child may cry and if you sing this lullaby, then in my heart or then in your heart, i will always be a part of you. And I remember my mother saying that to me and, like you know she's crying and I'm like, oh my God, just whatever.
Sarah
Host
42:46
Like I roll, i roll. It's called side eye, now Side eye.
Laura
Host
42:51
Side eye, side eye, yeah.
42:54
And yet now I remember that and that had to. Probably 30 years ago, she probably said that to me. But now I think about that And I think, yeah, she's, you know, there she is, she's in my heart, she's in me And I can celebrate that and love that. And as much as I wish you were here. I'm getting married right, like I am married technically in the law, but I'm having a wedding next year And my mom won't be there and there'll be a sense of grief and loss in her not being a part of this process.
43:21
There is a sense of grief and loss.
43:23
At the same time, there's also a sense of gratitude for what I carry with me, that she helped me to come to know, both in what she was able to offer and in what she wasn't able to offer, but which, you know, the space that her death brought, you know, sort of invited me into, and that's a weird way to talk about gratitude.
43:50
I wouldn't, you know, if I could have my mother back. I would have my mother back. At the same time, i wouldn't want my mother to have to suffer the way that she did right, like she suffered, and I'm able to see that and have compassion for that now, and in developing that compassion over time, i was able to find forgiveness and healing and, you know, to accept. She did the best that she could. She grew up in a very abusive household. You know she was adopted by a mother who was horribly emotionally abusive and neglectful and her father was an alcoholic and you know just horribly physically abusive and sexually abused her. My God, the fact that she was able to be as amazing as she was is a testament to who she was.
44:33
Yeah, right, she was pretty amazing And I carry that resilience and that survival in me and I thank her for that.
Sarah
Host
44:43
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah, yeah, what kind of resources do you feel like you have for folks who are struggling in their relationship with mothers, with their mother, with their daughter, the mother-daughter relationship in general?
Laura
Host
45:02
Yeah, i think that there's so much out there, right.
Sarah
Host
45:06
And there's so much out there Yeah.
Laura
Host
45:08
Yeah. So maybe we start closer to home, right? So like maybe we start with the wise women who are in our lives and start with them and who are safe to talk to, and maybe we start with having conversations with them in a way that helps us to sort of sort through all the emotions And that wise woman might have to be a therapist, right, like it might be a therapist But to not put all of the onus on mom or daughter to have to be the agent of change. So I think that's part and parcel of it doing our own work, as I said, in our own journey of self-discovery and self-healing And there's plenty of.
45:59
If we think about body and food, i mean there are a lot of wonderful resources on the Reclaim Nutrition website about parenting kids around, developing healthy sense of relationship with body and food. I certainly would invite people to check that out. Are there other opportunities for mothers and daughters to connect through maybe your faith community or through some sort of community group for support or healing, where there are others you can sit with, whether you are together or separate, and sort of talk about the struggles that you're having safely and with folks who can offer you compassion that maybe in that moment mom or daughter can't.
46:46
So I think that, and if you go on Amazon or whatever local bookstore you'd like to go to and support, yeah, I think that Yeah, i mean you can come up with, you put in a search for mothers and daughters and it's like umpteen million results and there's umpteen million perspectives, and so I think that's the other thing is like how do we learn to trust ourselves and really tailor it? I can go and avail myself of all of this dialogue that's out there, but at the end of the day, that is not the authority on this relationship. So how do I sort through that? And again, that's where I think a therapist, a trusted elder, if you will, might be helpful.
47:30
Dads or the other mom in the family, right, like some of us have two moms, some of us have a stepmom. We're close to Our fathers. My father was a huge peacemaker in our family And so, like to not discount the role of other family members as well. My brothers became a real source of support and validation for me because they understood what it was like to live in our household And, yes, they were sons to my mother, not a daughter to her, but there was still this validation that, like I wasn't alone and others got it and understood. So, whether that's siblings or through a support group, the idea of not feeling alone in that process, i think is really important.
Sarah
Host
48:10
Yeah, yeah, awesome, awesome. So complicated, so nuanced relationships with mothers and daughters, and healing is going to look so different for literally everyone, and you're so right of trusting what feels right for you in terms of your relationship and your healing and being with yourself through it all. So thank you so much for sharing your experiences about your relationship with your mom and for giving us the insight that you gave us. So appreciate it.
Laura
Host
48:43
Of course, of course, happy to be here and sit with everyone, and I encourage continued dialogue. This isn't there's no one way for any of us, so I just hope that. Maybe I'm getting sentimental here. But like, if we have our mothers in our lives, where are we being invited to further healing and forgiveness? If we have our daughters still in our lives, where are we being invited to the same That there still is possibility, even if we've given up all hope. Perhaps there's a new path we've yet to traverse that might take us toward what we had hoped for and at the same time, we can grieve that which we will never have.
Sarah
Host
49:29
Yeah, Thank you, laura. Yeah, sure, okay, everybody, we'll be back next week with another episode. Next week we're talking with Emily about body dysmorphia, so we'll talk to you then. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Reclaim You. Be sure to like, comment and subscribe, and check us out on YouTube at Reclaim You. If you're looking to start therapy for trauma, disordered eating or body image concerns, head over to our website at wwwreclametherapyorg to learn more about us and our work. We'll be back next week with another episode. Until then, take good care of yourself.
Reclaim therapy provides specialized therapy for trauma in Pennsylvania, complex trauma therapy and eating disorder treatment in Pennsylvania.
We know how complicated relationships with family of origin can be, especially if you have experienced childhood trauma or complex trauma. If you’re looking for therapy for childhood trauma in Pennsylvania, we’re so glad you found us. Our therapy practice is trauma informed, and is committed to providing trauma treatment that is centered around each individual’s experiences and goals. If you’re in need of support, we would be honored to walk with you through your recovery from traumatic experiences.